On the further wasting of time

Thursday, January 29th, 2009

Once again I am soooo sorry I have been remiss in posting, but there’s a certain type of idiocy which is truly compelling to me. Ray has put together a new site where he posts even more ridiculous versions of the ramblings from his blog. Here is an excerpt:

Imagine being there when the first dog evolved. There was a big bang, and millions of years later an animal with a tail and four legs, a liver, heart, kidneys, lungs, blood, ears and eyes evolved into the first dog. Fortunately for him, his eyes had evolved to maturity after millions of years of blindness, so that he could see the first female dog that had evolved standing by him. It was actually very fortunate, because if the female dog hadn’t evolved also and been at the right place at the right time, with the right parts and the willingness to mate, he would have been a dead dog. He needed a female to keep the species alive.

He posts this in spite of the fact that a bunch of people (including real biologists) have tried to explain to him how evolution works, how populations and species evolve, and how sex was an extremely useful development in very early evolution.

So why do I bother? Maybe because it is simply easier to argue with someone who is so extremely wrong about almost everything. I certainly don’t think he represents anything but a fringe minority of Christians. I do wonder what makes him so determined to stick with his "literalist" view of a divine act of creation less than 10,000 years ago, and I think I am beginning to understand why he simply cannot concede that he could be wrong about that (while most Christians are totally fine with an old Earth and Cosmos and the idea of evolution).

The problem is, if you take your Abrahamic religion really really seriously, you can’t reconcile evolution with Original Sin.

If we evolved from apes, monkeys or whatever, then there was no Garden of Eden where everything was perfect, and there was always death in the world. From an evolutionary perspective, there could be no Adam and Eve as the first humans, because there would be no hard line to delineate where a particular hominid became human. Even if somehow they were the first humans (for argument’s sake) due to some freak accident of simultaneous mutation (much like Ray’s ridiculous caricature above) they clearly weren’t perfect, because evolution will never produce perfection; it will merely produce "Good enough".

If humans were never perfect in the first place, then there could be no Fall, because there was nothing to fall from, and so no Original Sin. After all, we were merely intelligent animals, surviving as we could. For God to show up and nominate a couple of us to be His children (thought obviously not in His image, since God didn’t evolve hiding from predators and digging for ants) only to then damn them and their descendants for eating some fruit just seems idiotic. After all, if He just waited a few million years longer before putting us to the test, we might have evolved stronger intellect and reasoning skills, so that a talking snake wouldn’t be able to fool us.

So what are the implications if there was no Original Sin? For one thing I think it means we don’t automatically deserve to go to Hell, and we can’t consider ourselves "corrupted", because after all we are just animals and we’ve done pretty well getting this far, raising families, forming communities, creating languages etc. If anything, God should be impressed with how far we’ve come since He sparked life into existence all those eons ago.

To the fundamentalist Christian, I think this implied absence of Original Sin nullifies the whole point of Jesus coming to save us (from the damnation we deserved). In sending Jesus to us to be crucified, God sacrificed Himself to Himself to save us from Himself; paying our debt (to Him) for Original Sin. Although it could be argued that God doing this makes no sense at the best of times, it just gets worse if you do away with Original Sin by accepting evolution.

Non-fundies seem fine with evolution, and I’m glad of it, but to be honest I’m not 100% sure why they’re ok with evolution, because then you have to wonder what it was that Jesus was sent to pay for exactly. I guess we can just look at Jesus more as a teacher than as a sacrifice, but that whole crucifixion thing is still pretty pivotal to most Christian doctrine isn’t it?

And what of the soul? If man was created out of whole cloth then it’s easy to make a distinction between him and other animals and say that he has a soul, and further that that soul is eternal. But if you believe in evolution AND you believe in the soul (as something beyond our material selves) then you have to assume one of the following:

  • God granted us a soul at some arbitrary point in out evolutionary history, perhaps at the moment we ate the fruit? I guess that’s an obvious interpretation; that the soul itself was the knowledge of good and evil, and it made us all miserable the same way Spike’s new soul made him miserable, and Angel’s was given as a curse (see Buffy TV show).
  • We developed a soul in the same way we developed intelligence: Gradually. Which means we have to consider the sticky problem of all the animals we share the planet with who must therefore all have some semblance of souls of their own. What happens to them? I don’t think they’ll be going to Heaven or Hell, so will their souls be extinguished? Should we just keep eating them and try not to think about it?

Am I wrong to suggest that there are irreconcilable differences between a belief in evolution and pretty much any flavor of the Christian faith? Obviously I can google this question and probably get some excellent answers but for now I am just trying to work it out in my own head.

feed

8 Comments

  1. Sitakali says:

    “For God to show up and nominate a couple of us to be His children only to then damn them and their descendents for eating some fruit just seems idiotic.”

    Um…For God to damn Adam and Eve for showing curiosity and intelligence seems pretty idiotic as well. It’s all pretty idiotic. And really, if you actually practiced consistent rational thinking, why would you be Christian in the first place?

  2. Ross says:

    There are “irreconcilable differences” between evolution and Christianity - but that doesn’t stop people, even theologians from calling themselves Christians (they just cherry-pick which things they like, even to the extent of not believing in the existence of God.)

  3. dirtymouse says:

    can’t we talk about future? what happened to the good old days?

  4. Shaun says:

    Yeah, I wonder if the people who cling to the concept of original sin are those who can’t stomach the thought of a non-believer going all the way through life without doing anything particularly bad and then not going to hell. Perhaps saying ‘Well, you’ll go to hell just for not believing!” seems a bit too psycho even for them, so they need this “We are all born sinners, sorry kiddo!” malarkey to justify it.

    And I presume the idea of there being a hell is irresistibly attractive to these people as they relish the thought of all those unsaved original sinners (ie: nonbelievers) suffering horribly for their lack of belief.

    But then, you’d think that instead of clinging to the original sin story they could just adhere to a strongly literal interpretation of the ten commandments. Surely that would be enough to land most of us in hell. Thou shalt not download copyrighted material! Thou shalt not eat donuts on a Sunday!

    But then again, such a strict set of rules would also risk landing the believers in hell, so they’d have to be repenting all the time, and that might be too Catholic for some.

    I don’t know… perhaps they just love the idea of being a born sinner and then being saved. Kind of like getting a makeover. Who knows? Religion isa big fuzzy area of emotion-driven picking and choosing of beliefs, and some people might get a kick out of the Adam and Eve thing for reasons I can’t even imagine. Hey, maybe some of them have a secret fig-leaf fetish.

    As for Ray… you have to wonder if his wilful misrepresentation of the evolutionary process is just a way of attracting attention and promoting book sales. He strikes me as someone who is trying to replicate Anne Coulter’s ’success’, albeit while sticking to the domain of Creationism vs Science. He even seems to be trying to emulate her snidely mocking tone, with all his weak ‘Atheists R Stoopid! HURH HURH HURH’ jibes.

    And yes, I know I’m using a mocking tone too. But mine is a tender mocking tone.

  5. AndrewR says:

    You can save yourself a lot of time in theological discussions by refusing to consider the details until the big questions are resolved. For example:

    First you must have a reasonable argument for the existence of a sentient creator (ie ‘god’)

    Once that is established, you must have a convincing argument that _your_ god (Yahweh, Allah etc.) is that creator.

    Only then is there any point in arguing about the details of your belief (does Ezekiel 1 12:3 say that making bobble-heads of the Pope is sinful?)

  6. Simon says:

    NICE discussion… Those bullet points are persuasive and logically satisfying, and HA! :) talking snake.
    I reckon original sin is there for most of ‘em just as a logical necessity in certain arguments attempting to explain the existence of pain and suffering and human ‘evil’.
    Just today heard a This American Life episode about a charismatic american preacher who suddenly stopped believing in hell — it’s awesome. “Heretics” from Dec 2008.

  7. Royal says:

    Part of the reason you can’t reconcile this is that most of Christianity’s view of the creation and original sin are not correct. I’ll put it this way, there are Christian views that can be reconciled to all truth that we know. But, like all truth, they are not as simple as they first appear, and actually take a lot of research to work out. Two plus two equaling four seems quite a simple proposition until you talk to a mathematician. And until you converse with a truly faith-filled Christian that you have the utmost trust in, you probably will not see all the details that weave together in the creation.

  8. mark says:

    Here’s the thing… there’s not a lot of disagreement aout what evolution is. Pretty much any biologist from any cultural background will agree on the basic concept/mechanism.

    But whenever a wacky religious belief is criticized, someone can step up and say “oh that’s a cheap shot because those beliefs are wacky, unlike mine which are true”

    Having 60 different flavors of bullshit doesn’t change the fact that every single one of them is bullshit. The very fact that there are so many flavors is pretty much a glaring warning sign that there is nothing of substance worth investigating there. If there was an ultimate beautiful truth buried in the bullshit it would have shone through long ago and unified the bullshit into something coherent, but if anything it just keeps branching into more and more different strains. More than half of the population of the world WANT to believe in a God, and even with this desire they can’t get it together with a world view remotely consistent or compatible with the observable universe. Why?

Leave a Comment

Name

Name

URL

URL